Curse

lennymon · Oct 03, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

ooh, dont forget quivering blade/plague touch

nothing new... remember the good old days of signet of midnight/plague sending?

LifeInfusion · Oct 04, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowStorm

You titled this thread: "Irony of MtG similarity: We fall to the same traps." I must point out that that is not Irony. That is coincidence. The difference between Irony and coincidence in any situation is that Irony occurs when something you didn't expect to happen occurs and Coincidence happens when something you did expect occurs. In this case, "We're falling to the Same traps." So that's coincidence.

For there to be Irony in this topic, the "traps" discussed in the article you linked in your post would have to be common, tried and true routes to victory in Guild Wars. That way, we'd be falling for the same "traps" found in M:tg strategy, in Guild Wars, but they'd be giving us wins instead of losses.

Sorry for the lesson, but I see this sort of mistake made all the time and it bugs the hell outta me.

Well I thought it is ironic that guild wars aspires to provide a slew of varied skill sets, but like in Magic the Gathering, some players fail to see use of skills til they are used in FoTM builds and such.

Basically the irony is no matter how hard they (game skill makers) try people will fall back into comfort zones of FoTM and cookie cutters like in how MtG they have the white weenies, counter decks, direct damage, etc that are cookiecutters.

But that's just my interpretation, so sorry for the not so great use of the word "irony" .

ShadowStorm · Oct 04, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Basically the irony is no matter how hard they (game skill makers) try people will fall back into comfort zones of FoTM and cookie cutters like in how MtG they have the white weenies, counter decks, direct damage, etc that are cookiecutters.

Again, that's not Irony, that's Coincidence. People falling back into the comfort zones provided by cookie cutter builds in both games is an expected similarity. At times, things like this may seem odd, but that doesn't make them ironic.

Irony is actually very rare. But it's ok. I just felt like commenting on the situation because, like I said in my previous post, things like that bug me when I see them.

Amity and Truth · Oct 04, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Well, actually i have to agree that GuildWars Players are getting caught in the exact same traps but they refuse to see it.

1. Bigger is better
This one is a hundred percent true story. It's the reason why people think that Echo Nukers for example are so powerful. They see all those triple digit numbers in the skill and are like "omg wtf, big damage so it has to be good". But in the end, their "big" damage backfires upon them in terms of spellcost, exhaustion and Armor Level of the enemies.

2. Rare cards are superior.
I wouldn't say this is part of the skillsystem in GuildWars as pretty much every Skill is normally easy to get (unless they forgot to include a boss for it *cough* promise to not do it again or i will send an assassin:P). But it is true for rare weapons in the game. Take two identical weapons with the exact same stats. One is a golden crystalline and another one is a collectors weapon.
Players think that the Crystalline is superior to the collectors weapon even though they're identical. So yes, they fall for that one as well.

3. One card have one use.
Don't know about this one.

4./5. Positive buffs on enemy or negative buffs on ally.
This is something you currently can't really do in GuildWars as the game mostly prevents you from hampering with your own team or buffing your enemy. Spirits are an exception here but you still use those to mainly buff your own team.
Would be funny if you could put enchantments on an enemy. Put down Symbiosis, get his hitpoints high, spike him down with grenths and then kill the spirit. No one will do it though as it is too complex to pull off.
Another Spell is Reckless Haste which increases the Attack Speed of the enemy but also causes him to miss more often.

6. Don't forget the order.
Aye. Many many players mix up their skillbar tremendously. They fire their echo after their nuke. They put their enchantments on a partymember instead of them, etc etc etc.

7. I have to (hold on to) or (use asap) my card
Dunno. Something you mostly experience with newbies learning the game. But can be also seen with the celestial skill in the end missions of cantha. Many a two times i've seen people not using their skills "i'm saving them for trouble". Same goes to ressurection signet "i'll save it instead of ressing that monk so we might win that fight..."

8. I have to hit my opponent
A question of direct and indirect damage. Also a question of Elementalists wanted for every party and mesmers kicked from every party. Players just love seeing things hit the enemy. Those tiny purple sparkles the mesmer causes with his powerful spells they don't see. And thus "Mesmers suck omg kick him kick him!!!".
All because the Mesmer Class doesn't hit the enemy directly but with indirect attacks and control of the battlefield.

9. I shouldn't sacrifice things
Most just say "nay" to this one because the Necromancer sacrifices health for some of his spells. But that isn't really a sacrifice it is moreover an increased spellcost. What a sacrifice however for example is: Your party loses the battle, everyone retreats. Now if everyone retreats you can be sure that a lot of people will die during the retreat. But if a single person sacrifices himself by standing still, the enemies will kill him - no doubt but the party can easily get away without further losses.
Sacrificing is about fast decisions. Who do i heal? Will we lose much power if that ritualist channeler dies? Won't we lose more power if the Warrior dies? I could keep healing both but the pressure is too high currently... if i sacrifice one of both i could keep the party up, safe and healed without a problem...
These types of decisions.

10. All I need is life.
Very true for GuildWars. Take the 605 Build for example. It's more effective on lower health levels but most just try the 605 hitpoint variant, going as far as to even name it the 605 Build for some reason. You'll also see this with the warriors and necromancers which will often spam their health or energy before a battle starts.
This is also the reason the +30 hp mods cost about 10x more than the Armormods. And that even though the Armormods are a lot more effective.

cloudbunny · Oct 04, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

MtG carefully playtests and balanced their cards. Only very rarely will they ban a card for its power. Guild Wars does NOT playtest its skills, nor do they fix them if they are too powerful or too overused.

Well, I guess they have learnt something during all these years.

When my partner took me to a Magic-evening to teach me the game (in -97), one of the players had brought a printout of rule/card changes - a massive stack of 250 pages! In addition, a long list of banned and restricted cards.

I think GW does a pretty good job in fixing unbalancing PvP skills. If they had tried to also do frequent fixes on PvE skils, the uproar among the farmers would have been deafening.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Trakata · Oct 04, 2006, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Take two identical weapons with the exact same stats. One is a golden crystalline and another one is a collectors weapon.
Players think that the Crystalline is superior to the collectors weapon even though they're identical. So yes, they fall for that one as well.

It's not that the Crystalline is superior. It's that Crystallines are incredibly rare and one with collector stats is like a unicorn in the middle of a field of four leaf clovers. You can get collector items no matter what. It's not a matter of "superiority", just of sheer rarity.

morimoto · Oct 04, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

i play MtG and enjoy the endless possibilities of the decks that can be created. i love looking at the cards and thinking about the different combinations that can be made and finding unique ways of winning the game.

i believe GW does a great job in capturing this concept. over the last few days i have been reviewing over skills that at first seem useless and finding how to work them into a build.

i love collecting too. i collect MtG cards and i like collecting elite skills.

shardfenix · Oct 05, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloudbunny

When my partner took me to a Magic-evening to teach me the game (in -97), one of the players had brought a printout of rule/card changes - a massive stack of 250 pages! In addition, a long list of banned and restricted cards.

that 205 page rule change is called the Oracle, and it is not a rules change. It contains the full text for all 7000+ cards in magic. Half of those were printed before the current textbox templates were made, and that's why they seem like new rules.

As for the banned cards, in the past 2 years, 7 cards have been banned. Many of the cards in the banned list make you ante, flip them on the table, or do something odd that the rules can't measure. The rest of the banned cards are from the first sets, before WotC knew how powerful the cards are. Unfortunately, you can't recall trading cards like you can change skills in GW.

Heal party used to heal everyone for 184. Imagine if that was still around nowadays.

I will say that Anet does a relatively good job of fixing skill bugs or mistakes in their programming (like the spirit that drained 11 energy whenever someone attacked.) Although they could handle them quickly, one hour of playtesting would have revealed those bugs and fixed those problems before they happened.

Prosthetic · Oct 05, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

2. Rare cards are superior.
People still believe that lower req. weapons do more damage.

lightblade · Oct 05, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prosthetic

2. Rare cards are superior.
People still believe that lower req. weapons do more damage.

Lower req. weapon does do more damage if you think about it more.

If you only have a certain amount of attribute point left and you can only get your mastery level to 7. Which do more damage now? The req 7 or the req 13?

the heal0r · Oct 05, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

theres much truth in it but the thing with putting positive skills(enchantments )on opponents would be fatal.illusion of weakness-->OOB-->gg
there is good reason why some are hexes and others are enchantments

btw:there are skills that do dmg but remove conditions from enemies so thats nearly the same effect

edit2^^

ob first

.but the question is:does illusion of weakness trigger when the sacrificing costs would kill you first?dont think so

cloudbunny · Oct 05, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

that 205 page rule change is called the Oracle, and it is not a rules change. It contains the full text for all 7000+ cards in magic. Half of those were printed before the current textbox templates were made, and that's why they seem like new rules.

Well, this was 1997. The paper stack was a printout of a "card errata" text file, so it did not come from the Oracle. At least I'm sure it had some 2-page text blocks to explain changes and rulings of certain cards like "Clone". I'm a bit uncertain if the Oracle actually existed back then. I know I used it a couple of year later, though. I have not played with expansions from the last 5 years. So I know very little about the current state of the game.

Back then, it happened that a few weeks after a major release they had to ban several cards (especially during the Urza serie, I guess that one is legendary). If ANets "nerfs" upsets some people, I guess they would have been enraged to find that just when they got their Magic Uberdeck together (might cost a couple of $100 in some cases), the keycards were banned and the deck was almost worthless.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

nugzta · Oct 05, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Lower req. weapon does do more damage if you think about it more.

If you only have a certain amount of attribute point left and you can only get your mastery level to 7. Which do more damage now? The req 7 or the req 13?

Seriously is there any warrior, ranger, sin, etc would run 7 weapon mastery? Not to mention with lower weapon mastery means lower chance of critical hit of that weapon and lower damage attack skills.

EPO Bot · Oct 05, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I use divine spirit more for it's ability to make deny hexes useful then for the reduced energy it gives.

ShadowStorm · Oct 05, 2006, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Lower req. weapon does do more damage if you think about it more.

If you only have a certain amount of attribute point left and you can only get your mastery level to 7. Which do more damage now? The req 7 or the req 13?

Seriously, the only character that would ever run only a 7 in the mastery attribute is an IW mesmer using daggers for the double-strike possibility. And in that scenario, weapon req doesn't matter because IW is going to be doing the damage, not the daggers.

cloudbunny · Oct 05, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowStorm

Seriously, the only character that would ever run only a 7 in the mastery attribute is an IW mesmer using daggers for the double-strike possibility. And in that scenario, weapon req doesn't matter because IW is going to be doing the damage, not the daggers.

I think there are more possibilities than that.
I sometimes run a "combat trapping" Ranger (oath shot-throw dirt-traps) with high WS and expertise, a low req. + energy bow is a very nice addition then.

But I guess that it is still few builds that actually benefit from low req. items.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Cirian · Oct 05, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

You can do some obscure things to use negative effects on allies in Guild Wars. Take a Me/N and do something odd like this for example:

Malign Intervention (on enemy) -> enemy dies for some reason -> neutral bone horror spawns -> hex bone horror with Parasitic Bond -> charm it with Verata's Gaze and send it into enemies -> Shatter Hex your Parasitic Bond -> Boom!

Just an oddball example!

ShadowStorm · Oct 06, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloudbunny

I think there are more possibilities than that.
I sometimes run a "combat trapping" Ranger (oath shot-throw dirt-traps) with high WS and expertise, a low req. + energy bow is a very nice addition then.

But I guess that it is still few builds that actually benefit from low req. items.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

If you're running a trapping build, you'd be better off using a staff or wand + focus, than you would trying to get random shots in with a bow that is wielded by a character with a below average marksmanship attribute. The damage your trapper does should be entirely from the traps...

And in response to Cirian: That seems awfully complex and inefficient.

cloudbunny · Oct 06, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I know, Shadowstorm, but it is not as fun!
I have never bother about maximum effiency, anyway.

Combat trapping is a very funny build to use.
You put out traps before the battle, using Staff. Then when the battle start, you shift to energy bow and sneak around among the survivers, either go behind them and trap or throw dirt before trapping. Oath shot, rinse and repeat. Occasional distracting shot to interrupt major threats.

Not a focused build, but way funnier to play imho.

regards,
Cloudbunny